Egyptian Playwright 'Ali Salem Argues with Egyptian Nationalists over Visits to Israel

The following are excerpts from a discussion about the normalization of relations with Israel, featuring Egyptian playwright 'Ali Salem, Egyptian journalists Shafiq Ahmad Ali and Said 'Oqasha, and the Editor-in-Chief of Al-Arabi, Abd Al-Halim Qandil, which aired on Dream 2 TV on May 29, 2005.

Host: Two weeks ago you surprised us by going to Tel Aviv. Why? What change has occurred?

Salem: No. I went to Be'er-Sheva, to Ben-Gurion University, to attend a conference on the new media and public opinion in the Middle East. When I got the invitation I immediately accepted it, because the political circumstances have changed, and there is now a possibility and a strong chance to achieve peace, and to restore the Palestinians' rights, so I went.

The peace movement and the liberal trend in Egypt disagree with the socialist approach to economy. The liberals believe that the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty is a real treaty. They believe cooperation with Israel is inevitable in economy or any other field, for the benefit of the Palestinians.

Ahmad Ali: What do you achieve by going there?

Salem: We prove to the Israelis that not all Egyptian intellectuals are against them, or oppose their presence in the area. Just as Israeli intellectuals established the Peace Now movement, we have our own.

Ahmad Ali: Do you have to use heroin in order to know it's harmful? Do you have to engage in homosexual acts to know it's obscene? Do you put your hand in the fire? I'm not saying that. Mr. 'Ali Salem, your role is one known in history as "laundering" the reputation of the occupation. This is your role.

Salem: We are tied to Israel in a peace treaty. The issue that remains is whether you recognize this peace treaty or not. If you don't, what is your alternative? What is the alternative to this treaty?

Host: That is what I'm asking you.

Salem: This is a very important question. Everybody must understand that Egypt cannot sign a piece of paper and later say: "I am not responsible for this." These things are unacceptable in our times.

'Oqasha: Any Egyptian citizen who went to Israel did not break the law. This country has an embassy in the heart of Cairo, and if someone obtains an official visa, and departs from an Egyptian airport, he's not breaking the law.

Host: What counts for you is the law.

'Oqasha: Freedom. A person is free. Any citizen is free to act within the confinements of the law, and I believe that anyone going to Israel is doing just that.

Ahmad Ali: Excuse me, Mr. Said, I want to tell you something. Some things are not measured by law or money, but by national dignity. I will give you two examples. If a drug dealer who sells drugs is suddenly arrested but without a warrant, he gets out according to the law, but he is still a drug dealer. The law is not the criterion. Second, and there is also a third… This Camp David agreement... no one consulted you or me about it. The ruler didn't ask me about it. He didn't respect my will, so I am not bound by it. They made this agreement… Third, and most important - there are things such as national dignity. What do I mean? National dignity is not measured by gains and losses.

Host: Does going to Israel contradict national dignity?

Ahmad Ali: Of course it does. What do I mean by "national dignity"? If I, or anyone, were to say to you: "I will give you a billion or a million Egyptian pounds and you will let me sleep with you sister, your mom, or dad." This is where profits and laws are not the criteria. It is your sense of dignity.

Qandil: Those who signed the Camp David agreement, without the people's consent - and I demand to hold a referendum about all these agreements, including the Quiz – and those who signed the Quiz agreement can simply take it and shove it, because the Egyptian people will never recognize the existence… actually I mean the legitimacy of the Israeli entity, and will never recognize the legitimacy of those who do, since, in my opinion, the so-called " supporters of normalization" are in fact "Arab Zionists."

Salem: The state of Israel exists. I think our treaty with it is one of the most noble agreements any Egyptian leader has ever signed.