Egyptian Researcher Sa'id Okasha Rejects Al-Faraeen TV's Antisemitism and Holocaust Denial

On January 29, 2010, two days after Holocaust Memorial Day, Egypt's Al-Faraeen TV aired a program on the Holocaust, consisting of a documentary-style report with Nazi-era footage paired with narration in Arabic, and an interview with Egyptian researcher Sa'id Okasha by Al-Faraeen host Randa Samir. The report made a number of dubious claims, not least that while "Jewish organizations and Israel claim that about three million Jews were burnt in the Holocaust," this figure in fact "did not exceed 150,000" while "others say that the figure did not exceed 30,000." Other claims made by the report were that the Nazis' conflict with the Jews was "between the pure Aryan race, and homogeneous Aryans who believed they were Semites; that "any observer can see that it was the Jews who provoked Hitler, and urged him to take these measures," and that the Jews were the main reason for Hitler's downfall, having encouraged him to invade Russia in midwinter and to send forces to North Africa during the hot season.

Okasha, a researcher at the Al-Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies and former head of the division for Israeli studies in the now-defunct Arabs Against Discrimination NGO,[1] said outright that "nothing that was said in the report was based on [facts]." He told Samir that it included "many mistakes" and pointed out that the actual figure of Jewish Holocaust victims was set at six million, not three million – a statement that Samir vehemently rejected.

During the interview, the two argued over numerous points: for example, whether The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a forgery (Okasha insisted that it had been proven to be so, but Samir said, "That's your opinion"); whether an Arab leader had said, as Israel allegedly claimed, that the Arabs would push the Jews into the sea (Okasha stated no leader had, but Samir said that Gamal Abd Al-Nasser had, and that she knew this to be a fact because "I'm Iraqi. Iraqi! I was taught this in Baghdad. You think Saddam Hussein would teach us things that Israel says?!") and whether Hitler had converted to Islam towards the end of his life (Samir said that it was the Jews who claimed that, so as "to deepen the hatred towards Islam," while Okasha stated that the myth had originated in Egypt and had once been commonly accepted).

The following are excerpts from the documentary-style report and from the ensuing debate.

To view this clip on MEMRI TV, visit http://www.memri.org/legacy/clip/0/0/0/0/0/0/2374.

For other MEMRI TV clips from Al-Faraeen TV, visit:

http://www.memritv.org/search/en/results/0/0/0/0/2/0/0/0/0.htm?k=faraeen&bAdvSearch=false.

Report: "The Conflict Was Between the Pure Aryan Race, and Homogeneous Aryans Who Believed They Were Semites"

(Nazi-era footage) Narrator: "The Nazi party brandished the banner of the masters, while the European Jews also brandished the banner of the masters, due to their mistaken belief that they were Semites. This confusion was either inadvertent or deliberate. The bottom line is that they wholeheartedly believed that they were the Semite masters, and that the German Nazi party, with its social ideology, shattered their right to believe in this.

"Thus, an internal conflict broke out between the German Jews and the Nazis, who represented over 80 percent of all Germans and German speakers. Hitler's German intelligence agency managed to expose the ideological clash between the ideology of the Jewish belief, and the ideology of the Nazi belief. Ideology, in this case, is tantamount to belief.

"The flames raged, in a racial conflict, the goal of which was to make them masters and owners of the entire world. The conflict was between the pure Aryan race, and homogeneous Aryans who believed they were Semites.

"Therefore, the German Jews began to conspire against Hitler's policies. The German security agencies informed Hitler of the domestic actions of the Jews, which were in opposition to his Nazi philosophy and theories. Things ended in a clash, which had several phases.

[...]

"Their German citizenship was revoked, and they were no longer recognized as Germans or Aryans. The Jews, for their part, tried as much as they could to balance the persecution that erupted like a volcano against them in Germany. They escalated their conspiracies and accepted help from abroad against Hitler.

[...]

"Hitler and some of his aides realized that the German Jews were becoming a big headache, so Hitler took his famous measures of arresting them everywhere – in Germany and among its German-speaking allies. He began sentencing them to be burnt, after rounding them up in camps.

"Many Germans had fled abroad before the long arm of Hitler could reach them. Hitler began to invade Europe and to arrest whoever he could. He sent these people to the camps of the Jews, to await their turn to enter the Holocaust. With every victory of Hitler, many Jews fled the places conquered."

Report: "Any Observer Can See That It Was the Jews Who Provoked Hitler, and Urged Him to Take These Measures"

"No one can deny that the Jews were one of the main reasons for the defeat of Hitler in World War II, after he had come very close to conquering the world. The Jews managed to reach some of Hitler's advisors indirectly, and to present them with ideas that made them enthusiastic about the prospect of a German invasion into Russia when it was snowing heavily. On the other hand, they helped Hitler feel intoxicated by his victories, and encouraged him to send his forces to North Africa in a time of great heat." [...]

"Hitler was defeated after having burnt a not insignificant number of people who adhered to Judaism in Europe. We acknowledge that there was, indeed, a holocaust of the Jews in some camps, but we completely disagree with the figures, presented by the Jewish organizations and by Israel, regarding the number of European Jews who were burnt. Any observer can see that it was the Jews who provoked Hitler, and urged him to take these measures.

[...]

"The Jews committed a grave error that harmed them. They did not take everything into consideration when they tried to sever the Nazis from their racial beliefs. The Jews used conspiratorial means and political ploys, stemming from one of their precepts of faith: Necessity allows forbidden things." [...]

Report: The Jews Claim that Three Million Jews Were Burnt in the Holocaust – But We Say 150,000, Others Say 30,000

"The Jewish organizations and Israel claim that about three million Jews were burnt in the Holocaust, but we say that the figure did not exceed 150,000. Others say that the figure did not exceed 30,000. We condemn what happened to the Jews from 1933 to the end of World War II, but this does not mean that the Jews can extort the Germans this way. Germany should not continue to pay for Hitler's mistake until Judgment Day."[...]

Sa'id Okasha: "I Don't Understand Why the Arab World Cares So Much About the Number of Holocaust Victims"

TV host Randa Samir: "In your view, how many Jews were burnt in Europe?"

Sa'id Okasha: "Look, I have reservations about raising this issue. I don't understand why the Arab world cares so much about the number of Holocaust victims."

Randa Samir: "Maybe it is because of the false claims made by the Jews about this."

[...]

Sa'id Okasha: "If the Nazis had killed 30,000 people – like the figure in your report – just because they were Jews – would it not have been a crime? It is a crime against humanity."

Randa Samir: "Yes."

Sa'id Okasha: "Whenever you kill a person because his religion is different than yours, it is a crime against humanity."

Randa Samir: "But let's talk about the figures..."

Sa'id Okasha: "Let me finish. You are asking about the figure."

Randa Samir: "This figure is important to us because the Jews say it is three million."

Sa'id Okasha: "No, the Jews say six million, not three million. There were many mistakes in your report. The Jews say six million, not three million."

Randa Samir: First Time I've Heard of Three Million Jewish Holocaust Victims

Randa Samir: "This is the first time I hear this figure."

Sa'id Okasha: "This is the figure discussed in all the literature..."

Randa Samir: "We have conducted research, and so on..."

Sa'id Okasha: "In all the literature... In the Auschwitz camp alone, four million people died."

Randa Samir: "Before we move on... You've said something important. Based on all the research we have conducted, and on all the documented information we have gathered – we concluded that the Jews say the figure is three million.

[...]

"We mentioned three figures: three million, 150,000, and 30,000."

Sa'id Okasha: "On what did you base this report? I don't understand. Where did you get this figure of three million? I don't get it. Nor do I understand where you got the figure 30,000."

Randa Samir: "And you, where did you get the figure of six million?"

Sa'id Okasha: "That's what the Israeli websites say. Is there any Israeli website that says three million?"

Randa Samir: "Al-Faraeen TV says this."

[...]

Caller (Ahmad from Cairo): "The figure of the victims of this massacre is extremely exaggerated..."

Randa Samir: "Man, do me a favor – you say the figures of three million, 150,000, or 30,000 are exaggerated, but Mr. Sa'id says that we got the figures wrong and that it is 6 million."

Ahmad: "A massacre of six million?! This is really exaggerated. The number of Jews in the whole world at the time was no more than 2 million."

Randa Samir: "Yes."

Sa'id Okasha: "Where did you get this figure?" [...]

Samir: "A Few Days Ago, It Was Holocaust Memorial Day... The Jews Try, As Much As They Can, To Exploit This Holocaust... To Gain the Sympathy of the World"

Randa Samir: "A few days ago, it was Holocaust Memorial Day, and the Jews try, as much as they can, to exploit this holocaust, to exploit this event, in order to gain the sympathy of the world.

[...]

"They say that they are oppressed people. They say: We have suffered a big holocaust, and we want..."

Sa'id Okasha: "Mr. Ahmad, I'd like to tell you something, with your permission..."

Randa Samir: "Mr. Sa'id, please, I am talking with Ahmad now..."

Sa'id Okasha: "Go ahead."

Randa Samir: "Why are we focusing on the Jews? Because the Jews exploit this Holocaust, and they present figures that are definitely not true – regardless of what the real figure is – because their figure is much larger than the number of people annihilated. We want to present things in their natural proportions." [...]

Okasha: "Hitler Committed a Real Crime Against Humanity"

Sa'id Okasha: "Hitler committed a real crime against humanity, by targeting a large number of races, including the Jews. There were also the Gypsies, the Slavs, and the handicapped..."

Randa Samir: "Our report said that..."

Sa'id Okasha: "Let me finish what I have to say."

Randa Samir: "Mr. Sa'id..."

Sa'id Okasha: "I cannot complete a single sentence..."

Randa Samir: "Mr. Sa'id, we didn't invite you here to cause trouble for us, live on TV."

Sa'id Okasha: "I don't want to cause trouble, I just want to explain to the viewers..."

Randa Samir: "Calm down a little."

Sa'id Okasha: "By God, I am calm, but I cannot complete what I want to say."

Randa Samir: "Drink some water."

Sa'id Okasha: "No, thank you."

Randa Samir: "Calm your nerves."

Sa'id Okasha: "I am calm. You are asking a question, but you don't want to hear the answer. Did you bring me here so you could talk, or so I could talk?" [...]

Okasha: "Nothing That Was Said in the Report Was Based on [Facts]"

"We shouldn't be arguing with [the Jews] whether the Holocaust did or didn't take place, or about whether there were six million victims or 30,000 victims. This is a losing battle, which is not based on facts. Nothing that was said in the report was based on [facts]. What archive or document said that the number of victims was 30,000?"

Randa Samir: "And what document do you have to prove that the number is six million?"

Sa'id Okasha: "We have the Soviet, the German, and the English archives. Researchers and historians use documents. They don't invent figures according to their mood. I didn't know..."

Randa Samir: "You can rest assured, Mr. Sa'id, that we have documents as well." [...]

Samir: "Jewish Organizations Are Suing Us" Over Protocols; Okasha: "This Document Is a Forgery"

Sa'id Okasha: "The report focused on the notion of a Jewish conspiracy, and it said things that are categorically false. What was said about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion..."

Randa Samir: "Yes."

Sa'id Okasha: "This document is a forgery..."

Randa Samir: "The Protocols are the reason that the Jewish organizations are suing us.

[...]

"Please, let's forget about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I'll kiss your hand if you stay away from this subject, because this has caused a real crisis for us."

Sa'id Okasha: "This document is a forgery."

Randa Samir: "The Jews are accusing us of antisemitism because we discussed The Protocols. We are entering..."

Sa'id Okasha: "Between you and me – anyone who talks about The Protocols is indeed an antisemite."

Randa Samir: "Fine, but let me finish."

Sa'id Okasha: "Go ahead."

Randa Samir: "Because of The Protocols, we are facing a court case with the Jewish organizations – just because we discussed this issue."

Sa'id Okasha: "So this was a mistake?"

Randa Samir: "Exactly."

Sa'id Okasha: "So from now on, you need to be more careful."

Randa Samir: "The report said that we are willing to reveal the facts, but these people should come and sit with us."

Sa'id Okasha: "Who should come and sit with you?"

Randa Samir: "I made myself clear."

Sa'id Okasha: "Look..."

Randa Samir: "I made myself clear, we need to stop this digression."

Sa'id Okasha: "All the researchers of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion confirm that this is a forged document, composed by Russian intelligence, in order to persecute the Jews for racist and antisemitic reasons."

Randa Samir: "That's your opinion."

Sa'id Okasha: "Whoever says this is an antisemite, I'm sad to say."

Randa Samir: "That's your opinion."

Sa'id Okasha: "Fine. It's not a matter of opinion. Who can prove that The Protocols are real? This book is circulated in the market, but the historians..."

Randa Samir: "Dear sir, this is your own opinion, but if this is really the case, why didn't the Russians commit a holocaust against the Jews?!"

[...]

Sa'id Okasha: "Your report said that the Jews convinced Hitler to invade Russia. They didn't. From the beginning, Hitler had a comprehensive plan to take over Europe. Not the whole world, just Europe."

Randa Samir: "This was not the only thing that we said in the report."

[...]

Sa'id Okasha: "It is very easy to say that the Jews conspire, but where is the proof?"

Randa Samir: "We know that this is what Hitler said."

Okasha: The Protocols, Matza of Blood Are Myths

Sa'id Okasha: "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the myth about the matza of blood, which claimed that the Jews were making matza from the blood of Christians or Muslims... These myths existed, but they were not true. Scientific research has shown that these were all myths. It is possible to invent a myth in order to malign a certain people or group. Israel invented myths about us Arabs as well."

Okasha: The Israelis Claim " The Arabs Said That They Wanted To Throw The Jews Into The Sea... It Has Not Been Proven That Any Arab Leader Ever Said This"; Samir: "Nasser Said This"

Randa Samir: "What are we making this show for? For that reason exactly."

Sa'id Okasha: "They said that the Arabs said they wanted to throw the Jews into the sea. It has not been proven that any Arab leader ever said this. It didn't happen."

Randa Samir: "Abd Al-Nasser said this, Mr. Sa'id."

Sa'id Okasha: "No, he didn't."

Randa Samir: "Abd Al-Nasser said: 'I will throw Israel into the river (sic).' Word for word.

[...]

Mr. Sa'id, I will give you – as a personal gift from me to you – the speech by the late leader Abd Al-Nasser, in which he said this sentence."

Sa'id Okasha: "Israel and the Jews are the ones who spread these claims, but it's wrong."

Randa Samir: "By the way, he said: 'Israel and whoever is behind Israel.'"

Sa'id Okasha: "No, he never said this."

[...]

Randa Samir: "He also said that Israel is the 52nd state [of the US]."

Sa'id Okasha: "Look, saying 'the 52nd state' is not the same as talking about throwing the Jews into the sea. It has never been proven that any Arab leader..."

Randa Samir: "Let me tell you something so we won't argue too much about Abd Al-Nasser. I am Iraqi..."

Sa'id Okasha: "I recognize your accent."

Randa Samir: "They used to make us memorize the speeches of Gamal Abd Al-Nasser."

Sa'id Okasha: "When did Abd Al-Nasser say this?"

Randa Samir: "Look, he made this speech in 1967. More or less."

[...]

Sa'id Okasha: "Israel spreads these claims in order to garner sympathy. Why should I accept this? It's one myth against another myth."

Randa Samir: "I'm telling you, I'm Iraqi. Iraqi! I was taught this in Baghdad. You think Saddam Hussein would teach us things that Israel says?!"

Sa'id Okasha: "Saddam Hussein did not know anything. He was completely clueless. He said things to excite the masses, but this sentence was never said."

Randa Samir: "Once again, that's your own opinion." [...]

Okasha: "The Jews Are People Just Like Any Other People... They Work Hard and Excel... Some of the Greatest Scientific Minds... Were Jews"

Sa'id Okasha: "The big problem of the Arabs is that they portray the Jews as geniuses. It is as if the Arabs support the myth that the Jews are the Chosen People. The Jews are not such geniuses that they could rule the world, and successfully conspire against everybody else.

[...]

"The Jews are people just like any other people. Regular people. When we say that they conspire and constantly succeed in getting what they want, this means that they are geniuses and we are idiots. Unfortunately, Arab mentality views the Jews as if they rule the world. This is very strange and is not true. They work hard and excel in some areas. That mush is true. We cannot deny that some of the greatest scientific minds produced by humanity were Jews. [...]

"The Arabs are always saying things that are completely unfounded. Many viewers talked about Sabra and Shatila. Who perpetrated the Sabra and Shatila [massacre]? It was the Lebanese Maronites, not the Israelis. We keep talking about the Sabra and Shatila massacre as if Israel did it. Israel did not commit the Sabra and Shatila massacre."

[...]

Randa Samir: "I disagree with you regarding Sabra and Shatila."

Sa'id Okasha: "Who perpetrated the massacre?"

Randa Samir: "I disagree with you. The Israelis perpetrated it."

Sa'id Okasha: "No, who said this? The Maronites killed the Palestinians."

Randa Samir: "Yousuf Ahmad, our correspondent in Palestine, who is a Palestinian – are you calling him a liar?"

[...]

Sa'id Okasha: "Look, nobody in the world claims that the Israelis perpetrated the Sabra and Shatila massacre. The Maronites did this, and the Israelis helped them by lighting up the camp. This was the final conclusion of the international inquiry committee."

Randa Samir: "Mr. Sa'id, I thank you for presenting the Israeli position."

[...]

Sa'id Okasha: "Since Germany agreed to pay compensation, nobody should start arguing about this. Germany pays compensation in keeping with its agreement with Israel. Germany is an independent state, and it could say 'no' if it didn't want to pay compensation. Talking about Israel extorting the Germans or the Europeans – in the world of politics, you use all the means at your disposal for the sake of your interests.

[...]

"Every country has the right to use all means available for the sake of its interests. This should not be considered a Jewish or Israeli conspiracy.

[...]

"Hence, Israel is no exception. Everyone does the same as Israel."

Samir: "The Jews Have Claimed That Hitler Converted To Islam Toward the End of His Life... to Deepen the Hatred Towards Islam"; Okasha: "This Was Once a Common Myth in Egypt"

Randa Samir: "Mr. Sa'id, the Jews have claimed that Hitler converted to Islam toward the end of his life. They even use things like that to deepen the hatred towards Islam. Why do you think they want to turn Islam into their No. 1 enemy?"

Sa'id Okasha: "The Jews told the story about Hitler converting to Islam only because during the initial phase of the war – when Hitler had great victories, and especially when he reached El Alamein in Egypt – some groups in Egypt itself – and this can be found in the history books – started the rumor that Hitler had converted to Islam, and had changed his name to Hajj Muhammad Hitler. This was once a common myth in Egypt." [...]

Okasha: Hamas "Is a Catastrophe, Because It Turned the Conflict into a Religious Conflict

Randa Samir: "Why do the Jews want Jerusalem?!"

Sa'id Okasha: "The crimes committed by Hamas..."

Randa Samir: "Why do they want Jerusalem?"

Sa'id Okasha: "This conflict has nothing to do with us. The area of the holy places for Christianity, Judaism, and Islam – understandings must be reached about this area. You cannot say that only one side has rights there. The Jews, the Muslims, and the Christians all have rights there.

[...]

"Rabbi Lau, the Chief Rabbi of Israel, came to Egypt in 1996, and met with the Sheik of Al-Azhar. He asked the Sheik of Al-Azhar: 'How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Koran?' He answered: 'None.' Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran at all. But the Sheik of Al-Azhar said that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is mentioned in the Koran. Rabbi Lau said: 'If the problem is the mosque – take it.'

"We can get all of Jerusalem as long as the conflict remains a political one, but when we raise the banner of religion, we get nothing. The rise of Hamas, and the existence of Hamas, is a catastrophe, because it turned the conflict into a religious conflict."