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In a recent TV debate, Egyptian intellectuals discussed the plight of liberalism in Egypt. Khaled Muntaser, criticizing Egypt's law against blasphemy, said that "there would have been no progress in the world without the so-called blasphemy," bringing Galileo and Darwin as examples. Maher Samuel made a plea for using one's mind and questioning one's beliefs, saying that "the quest for truth is a moral duty" and that "if it is proven that faith cannot prevail against scientific research, it is not worthy of my belief." He criticized the educational system that has "destroyed the mind" and turned it into "fertile ground for superstition." The debate aired on Egypt's TV channel 1 on February 8, 2016
Following are excerpts:
Khaled Muntaser: In a religious state, there can be no scientific development or progress. Why do I say this? Because a [religious state] is based upon the notion that there can be nothing new under the sun. Religion relies upon the notion that everything has been achieved in the past – whether 1,400 years ago, 1,000 years ago, or 500 years ago.
[…]
People who opposed Marxism were called apostates, just like [people who leave the fold of Islam]. The issue is not one of religion, but of "dogma" – of clinging to the notion that there can be nothing new under the sun.
[…]
Maher Samuel: There is a well-known saying by Socrates: "The unexamined life is not worth living." I say, along the same lines, that an unexamined belief is not worth believing in. If I do not reexamine my faith, if I do not rethink what I believe in, and if I am satisfied with knowing what I believe in, without questioning why I believe in what I believe, and without knowing what evidence there is for what I believe in, I will find that I am facing a true catastrophe, and that I am stripping myself of my humanity. The quest for truth is a moral duty.
[…]
I believe that Allah was the Creator of this Universe, and that within it He created a mechanism that only the mind can understand, how is it possible that Allah does not respect the mind? And how can I not use my mind [to understand] Allah's creation, and [to understand] the religion which, I maintain, is from Allah? If it is proven that faith cannot prevail against scientific research, it is not worthy of my belief. I do not see any contradiction [between faith and the human mind]. On the contrary, I must spend my entire life seeking the truth, and studying in an effort to understand everything around me, including religious belief.
[…]
Khaled Muntaser: Blasphemy is a flexible word. I may surprise my viewers when I say that there would have been no progress in the world without the so-called blasphemy. Galileo was blasphemous.
Male Interviewer: He was considered blasphemous by the Church in the Middle Ages.
Khaled Muntaser: By the definition of the Church, Galileo was blasphemous. Someone who says that the Earth moves, while the Sun is stationary – this was unheard of. The Church lived according to the antithetical conviction that the Earth was stationary, while the entire universe revolved around it. The same goes for Darwin, who said that Man was the same as any other Creature on the face of the Earth. Human society was offended by this and considered him to be blasphemous. Human society was offended by this and considered him to be blasphemous.
The vaccine which has saved your children, Dr. Maher's, and mine from smallpox was invented by the physician Edward Jenner. The Church leveled accusations against him, saying: How dare you prepare a vaccine? This illness is divine retribution, and we must not intervene. Our Lord is punishing us for doing this, that, or the other, so how can you prepare a vaccine?
[…]
The Prophets were considered blasphemous by their tribesmen and townsfolk.
Male Interviewer: So what you are saying with regard to the law against blasphemy today is that after the law [is abolished], there will be light at the end of the tunnel.
Khaled Muntaser: Let me say something. Enlightenment is bound to come, whatever they do and however much blood is shed. This is what history teaches us. Let me tell you a little story. I visited the Torture Museum in Amsterdam. Everybody goes to visit the Van Gough Museum – and so did I – but I also went to see the Torture Museum, which is a little bigger than this studio. It contains all the forms of torture performed by Europe on intellectuals, mainly in the Middle Ages. It contains things that are unimaginable: for example, a fork with two prongs, which is inserted I don't know where… And all this is in order to put an end to enlightenment, but enlightenment prevailed.
Male Interviewer: True.
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Maher Samuel: We are calling upon intellectuals and enlightened people to awaken the conscience and reason of the people. It's true. They play an important role. But let's not forget that their lives are under threat, and that they suffer horrible pressure. I believe, therefore, that there should be a political decision that supports these people. The entire world must know that the moral evils and the destruction from which it suffers… There is no moral evil that is not based on ideology. Making do with fighting the moral evils, without seeking the underlying roots in the minds of those who act upon it, is complete nonsense. We must seek out the ideologies that underline this evil. The work of those who seek them out is worthless, if they do not gain political support.
Male Interviewer: What form should this support take?
Maher Samuel: They should get least get protection. They should get access to the media.
Male Interviewer: There should be no blasphemy law.
Maher Samuel: That's right. Even this program… Are you sure that it will be allowed to continue to air?
Female Interviewer [laughing]: We hope so… We hope so…
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Maher Samuel: I have looked for a single Egyptian authority who opposes the ideology of Ibn Taymiyyah. This was for my research. I could not find a single book in Egypt in Arabic… I could find books like that in other languages, but not in Arabic. If anybody knows of such a book, let me know.
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In my beloved country, the mind has been castrated and its wings have been clipped. They have emasculated the mind, which is now like eggplant – good for nothing but stuffing. How is the mind used in our schools? Where are the arguments? The debates? What about differing views? Why don't we encourage our children to ask questions and think for themselves? Six-year-old children ask 400 questions a day. Who gives them this opportunity at school?
Female Interviewer: And who answers their questions? There is nobody to answer them.
Maher Samuel: In my view, the educational system has destroyed the mind, and has turned it into a mind that only absorbs things, but is not critical, does not ask questions, and does not understand. That way, it has become fertile ground for superstition.
[…]
There is a well-known saying by [philosopher George] Santayana: "those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."Europe has undergone three major historical periods. The first is the Renaissance. Then came the Reformation, followed by Enlightenment. It cannot be the other way around. When you study the Renaissance which led to religious reform, you realize that it was due not to men of religion, but to the intellectuals.
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