In a recent interview with the anti-liberal Russian philosopher Alexander Dugin, the interviewer Katerina Sazhneva claimed that Dugin liberally invoked Dugin's writing including in his February 24, 2022 address to the nation upon the launch of the special operation in Ukraine. Dugin modestly replied that both he and Putin were inspired by the golden pages of Russian history and this accounted for the similarity. Dugin did not hide his satisfaction that the war in Ukraine had resolved the contradiction between the "lunar" Putin, who took account of Western reactions, and the heroic "solar" Putin, who would do what had to be done to unite the Slavic world in a single space. The "solar" Putin was now completely ascendant.
Dugin's only criticism of Putin was his attempt to prosecute the war as a war of the state rather than as a war of the Russian people. It was necessary to mobilize the entire people for a war against the "absolute evil embodied in Western civilization". If such a direct appeal was made, the Russian people would surely respond and victory would be assured.
The interview with Alexander Dugin follows below:[1]
Dugin and Putin (Source: Inosmi.ru)
Alexander Gellievich [Dugin], I was rereading one of your interviews about the existence of two Putins, the "Solar" and "Lunar" ones. “Solar” Putin is “Krym nash” [“Crimea is ours” slogan] the restoration of the Eurasian empire, messianism. "Lunar" Putin is a rational practitioner, a realist, a supporter of capitalist economics, who glances back [for approval] at the collective West. Back then, you lamented that Putin would never choose the "Solar" path, preferring to combine both. So, as of today, has the choice been made?
Yes, there is no doubt that "Solar" Putin has emerged victorious, and I have been saying that this will be the case not for a year, but for many years in a row. I even had a book published about it, "Putin vs. Putin," dedicated to the main paradox of Russian politics. It has been translated into many languages, and in it I elaborate my theory in detail.
Dugin's book Putin vs. Putin (Source: Goodreads.com)
There is an interesting author in historical science, Ernst Kantorowicz, who wrote a study called The Two Bodies of the King.
It is about the fact that any great ruler always has a dual nature. On the one hand, physically, he is certainly a human; and on the other hand, he is a historical figure, part of a continuous historical process. Being a human, a ruler can think one way, but as a historical figure, on whom the fate of nations and states depends, can act very differently. [That’s a very loose description of what Kantorowicz’s book is about though]
This duality creates the deepest stress, the drama of the ruler, and is characteristic of a wide variety of political regimes. It doesn’t matter whether we are dealing with democracy, as in the case of Churchill or Roosevelt, or with monarchy, as [Russia under the rule of Czars] Ivan the Terrible or Nicholas II. This is a division that arises in the soul and in the heart, in the consciousness of the ruler, when he becomes truly aware of his responsibility before history, when the future of humanity depends on his actions, his decisions (that are based on himself, his destiny and the depths of his "inner-self.”)
A common, normal person acts rationally, following inertia, this is what I call the "Lunar" side of a person. Such a person adapts to circumstances and acknowledges the rules of the game, follows moral and ethical norms.
The "solar" side of a person prompts him to perform a great exploit. This [side] is most vividly manifested in the character of our president.
On the one hand, Putin is committed to the sovereignty of Russia as a state, but on the other hand, with his rational side, I believe he was well aware of the consequences of stubborn insistence upon his position.
In this regard, Putin's "Solar" launch is extremely tragic, as it implies a struggle with the ideas and values of the West. However, Russia has finally crossed the Rubicon, which I am, personally, very happy about.
But what served as the reason for such a drastic change in course? After all, back in December, we all on the way to a "digital concentration camp:" QR-certificates were introduced almost unanimously in the regions, as in the West, and, in general, nothing heralded a break with the West and their projects. It seems that there were some events that we do not know about...
I believe that during an entire 22 years of Russian politics connected with the rule of our president, he kept striving to reconcile the incompatible at all costs. On the one hand it was an integration into the global world system, as well as compliance with all its requirements: accession to the WTO, WHO, adoption of a liberal economic model, digitalization, joining international human rights institutions. On the other hand, Russia's sovereignty must be strengthened and reinforced.
Meanwhile, we remained independent and were promoting our own interests in the military sphere, for instance, by defending [Russia's] territorial integrity during the second Chechen campaign, by strengthening federal power, and by opposing separatism within Russia. These two objectives, "Lunar" and "Solar" ones, were in principle incompatible with each other.
Up to a certain point, both policies were essentially important for our president, but the internal conflict was increasing. I believe that in general, a relative equilibrium of these objectives existed until February 22, 2022.
Wait a second, but the exercise "Union Resolve-22" held at the border with Ukraine began earlier than February 22. So, one can't talk in principle about any sudden start to the special operations?
In fact, the two workplans, the "Lunar" and "Solar" ones weren’t on the same level. Liberalization and participation in international processes was one level, while the military-strategic defense of our national interests was another. These levels didn’t overlap, as far as I can see. However, at some point our leadership saw that the next step would be an attack by the Ukrainian regime on Donbass and on Crimea (conducted along with Western support), while the troops concentrations on our own border was absolutely insufficient to prevent this attack. Thus, it was impossible to preserve Russian sovereignty without launching a special military operation.
"The siege of Kyiv is forever"
So, was Ukraine going to attack Donbass or Russia?
The success of [Kiev’s] operation in Donbass, provided Ukraine would had started it first, would have led under the current Ukrainian regime to an inevitable attack on Crimea and to the involvement of NATO troops. First it would have attacked Donbass, then Russia... Those were the plans.
But how quickly could they be realized? In a day? A week? A month?
I have no idea, but I have no grounds for doubting our leadership when they talk about these plans.
As we can see, neither the West nor NATO has intervened directly into the unfolding events. Although in theory they had every opportunity to do so. Not only that, they had a reason because it was Russia that launched the special operation. At the same time, they are in no hurry to help Ukraine by deploying military, or by closing the sky with their air defense systems. How then can you be sure that they would've helped Ukraine under any other scenario?
They wanted to attack us through the hands of others. They wanted to sick the Ukrainian fascist regime upon us.
Why haven't they attacked us themselves now? I believe it’s not high time yet. They are now monitoring our progress, reserving the opportunity to move the escalation of the conflict to a new level. I believe that they perceive that those measures, those sanctions that they were able to impose against Russia, taking advantage of our preventive, independent, anticipatory, signaling start of a special military operation, have worked.
They think that they have a chance to defeat Russia not in the literal sense (as this scenario is impossible) but to crush it and force to surrender by excluding it from their global system.
They believe that by isolating us from every institution they previously integrated us into so diligently, that by ejecting us from their civilization, they will prompt Russia cease to exist.
Yes, there are conveniences, to which Russian common folk got used to. They have been taught, hooked on these protocols of life. I believe that the West thinks that steps to isolate Russia will be sufficient, that open military hostilities and confrontation with NATO won’t have the desired effect.
After our president has crossed the Rubicon, all the embedded contradictions in this dual model became apparent. The previous system carried within itself an internal poison, which was killing our society (at least in the long term), but at the same time had a healthy military-strategic component. Globalization was a tool of a unipolar world, it aimed at strengthening of Western hegemony and at weakening of all those, caught up in this process. Apparently, it wasn’t obvious to the country's leadership until the last minute that the globalists were using us.
By the way, China somehow avoided being used.
True, up to a certain point, China has been excellent at both maintaining its sovereignty (in particular on the Internet), and exploiting the open opportunities of globalization. But we are different. What happened with China succeeded, won't happen by us.
We have, as it seems to me, different cultural codes. First of all, it’s easy for the Chinese to submit to authority. If only because Confucianism originally contained the idea of a state order, under which the ruler is the father of the nation and everyone should love him as a fact of life; while the individual and his interests are unimportant compared with society's interests.
Yes, you are right, they have a unified culture and, much more importantly, a distinctive centralist political system under the Communist Party's complete control. It’s not so much a capitalist or socialist system, as it is Chinese-Communist-Confucian one.
Maybe since Russia has no actual ideology, there hasn’t been a hardline policy of rejecting the toxic characteristics of globalization. But, certainly, we have the prerequisites to become a country similar to China. By the way, today China, as well as Russia, are in confrontation with the globalists. All this is quite obvious. The experience of China and Russia should be combined and harmonized, in building a multipolar world. We should be friends with China.
Why would China do that?
Because China treats us with great respect, because we are not inferior to it in some respects, for instance, we have the great Russian people who have rallied together all other peoples together, we have a unified history, we have a strong identity. The "Solar" world, into which we are all now entering can be diverse.
And who builds the " Solar" world? Sorry, but the figures are still the same, the positions are the same, as they were under the "Lunar” world. The people, who were in power and looked up to the West, proclaim the exact opposite slogans. Just now [Putin's special economic representative Anatoly] Chubais has fled to Turkey...
There is no need to rush. An irreversible shift of the history’s “tectonic plates,” a return to an authentic Russia, has happened only a month ago; everything is just beginning. And Chubais' flight is in fact a symbolic gesture. "Chubais' flying away" is symbolic.
Well, he's feeling just fine. He withdraws money from the ATM...
There's no need to be bloodthirsty. If he has escaped, good riddance. It's important to grant society a certain amount of amnesty. If a person, who identified himself as liberal yesterday, is no longer a liberal today, but warmly supports the special military operation and the president, then he is on our side. Let Chubais run, let [screenwriter] Dunya Smirnova run away with him.
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One thing is important to a Russian man, there should be no evil. Russian people are very kind. And if some officials continue to engage in sabotage, then they will be treated in the same manner, as the Nazis from [Ukraine's] Azov Battalion. However, every person today has an opportunity to become a Russian, and we shouldn’t deprive such people of this opportunity.
The following is the most important question I would like to ask you. Are you the ideologist of the very Russian World that everyone is talking about?
I’m not going to deny that I am an ideologue of the Russian world, but it doesn’t come in conflict with Eurasianism, to which I adhere too. It’s hard to imagine more [ardent] supporters of the Russian World than Russian members of Eurasian movement.
It was the members of Eurasian movement, who were rightly and correctly insisting that Russia is an independent civilization, that Russian identity has neither national nor ethnic character, it’s a cultural type, an open identity. It’s, in a sense, an empire that has absorbed everyone.
The Russian people are its center. And the Russian people welcome those peoples, who conjoin their destiny with that of the Russian people, so that they would receive a worthy and full opportunity to participate in our destiny. I came to this discovery back in the 80s, while studying and researching the fate of Russia. By the early 90s, my worldview had been refined and turned into my own truth and life program.
And you haven't changed since then, since the early 90s?
Yes, I laid out my principles in the early 90s in a series of papers. They have been translated into many languages. These are natural findings for me, and many of the events that are unfolding now, I described in detail thirty years ago.
I’ve always believed that my main idea and the idea of my people is the idea of a great free and independent Russia, of Russia as a civilization. And I, being a philosopher, am called to gaze into the depths of the Russian beginning that I have been fortunate enough to carry within me. The logic of Russian destiny is transparent to me.
And what is that?
This is, certainly, an affirmation of Russia, as an independent civilization with its own traditional values. And it won’t be a full-fledged civilization until we unite all eastern Slavs and all Eurasian brothers into a single big space. Everything follows this destiny’s logic, and so do [events in] Ukraine.
What if someone wouldn’t want to voluntary become a part of our destiny?
Sometimes it is difficult to follow the right path. At each critical stage of history, Russia was ether losing its West Russian lands, or our unity was re-established; the siege of Kiev is a constant of Russian history.
The Siege of Kiev… do you refer to the current events or that of the Middle Ages?
The siege of Kiev is constant. These are different levels of the same pattern. Do you know for how long we have been at war over Kiev with the Western Russian princedoms?
For about seven hundred years?
[It has been going on] since our Russian Middle Ages. There was a conflict between Great Russians and Galicians for Kiev. An identity and culture close to the Catholic and Polish one was forming at that time in Western Russia. In turn, in Eastern Russia since its establishment by Grand Prince, Andrei Bogolyubsky one can see a prototype of the Great Eurasian Empire, which we have become. Thus, Kiev will be ours.
Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky (Source: Life.ru)
"We'll win, and then we'll explain everything."
As Patriarch Kirill recently put it, the struggle is on a metaphysical level?
The metaphysical and physical levels of existence are much more intimately connected than we may think. It makes no difference to me when or what was, or will be. This is why I am able to see events that have not yet happened.
Anyways, the siege of Kiev is a struggle for the unification of the Eastern Slavs and for the establishment of a sovereign civilization of the Russian World, which will be in confrontation with the West.
However, the West always uses Western-Russian collaborators, starting with the support provided by the pope to Daniel of Galicia in 1253, when he sent him a crown. And at a critical moment, the West always betrays everyone. Everyone, naturally, remembers Gogol's famous quote [in Taras Bulba], "Did your Lyakhs help you, son?" [Gogol’s novel “Taras Bulba” is about Cossack uprising of 1637]. This phrase is repeated over and over again through the ages, and today, too. You can ask Zelensky.
But besides Zelensky, there are 40 million people residing in Ukraine. The special operation that is underway now, is being conducted in the Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine. Russians live here, the Russian language is spoken here. Kharkov, Mariupol...
How do you explain to a Russian mother, who lost her home, her child, who witnessed all the horrors of destruction and bombing, that all this was done for her own good? Not on a metaphysical plane, but on a material one, what is she suffering for?
There are people, who think and seek to comprehend the truth, and there are people, who deal with certain technological problems regarding the reunion. Back in 2014 it was clear what should be told to her. The streets of Kharkiv in 2014 were covered with flyers containing my statements and quotes, my portraits were plastered on the premises of the city administration.
True, and Russian volunteers were coming to Donbass carrying your ideas about the Russian world. However, today is 2022. The homes of Russian-speaking Ukrainians were destroyed not eight years ago, but are being destroyed now.
There is such an Old Testament prophet named Jeremiah. He is known for his lamentation. So, I can announce that the state of my soul from 2014 to 2022 is Jeremiah's lament for the Russian World. I was heartbroken about what we had to do.
Naturally, we are in a difficult situation now, and many opportunities for soft solutions have been lost. I don't know who is to blame, just as I don't know who is to blame for the fall of Troy...
So, how do you explain to a Russian mother from Mariupol that all the unfolding events are for the good?
A death of loved ones is a horrible grief. Now it’s almost impossible to explain many things. We will explain it all later, after the liberation of Ukraine. When Mariupol will be ours, then your question will become relevant. Right now, our plan is to win.
As soon as the flags of Eastern Ukraine, of Russia, of freedom and independence soars over Kherson and Novorossiya; as soon as Donetsk and Lugansk oblasts will be liberated, [as soon as] Kherson, Nikolayev, Zaporozhe, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk and other republics will be established, we’ll immediately start to explain.
The first Minister of Defense of the DPR, Igor Strelkov, as well as Alexander Boroday, the first head of the DPR are both your students. It’s clear were you and they were back in 2014, but what happened afterwards over the past 8 years?
Before the decision about the Russian Spring was made, I didn't leave the TV channels. After that I disappeared. They cast me into a sort of social prison, into exile, yet I continued to do what I believed in.
I followed the logic I told you about. I had always been absolutely convinced of the appearance of such a figure like Putin since the late 1980s, long before it happened. It was back then when only [the pro- Western Boris Yeltsin and Chubais [were in the forefront of politics].
But I knew that salvation would come. And a "man of destiny" would appear to reunite the Russian world.
My friend, French writer, mystic, and poet, Jean Parvulesco (who is now deceased) wrote a terrific book titled “Putin and the Eurasian Empire.” Jean predicted by a number of indications that Putin was the figure Russia needed. Even before he appeared, he Parvulesco claimed that a great leader with a background in military and the special services would come to restore ancient Russian civilization.
Dugin with Parvulesco (Source: Geopolitica.ru)
And also "will establish an imperial eschatological will over the space from the Atlantic to the Pacific." I read it.
Ties with the former, old world have been irreversibly cut. A special military operation is irreversible. I wish all this had happened in 2014, but then we wouldn’t have exhausted the full potential of "Lunarness.”
And now it all has been exhausted, am I right?
Yes, all of it
"He who is not with us is with Satan."
When will we win? Your student Strelkov laments that operation is going on for too long, that immediate mobilization is required, including human resources. But will the Russian people agree not just to give arm chair support to the president, but to fight for the Russian idea weapon in hand and, perhaps, even to die [for it]?
The way Strelkov has been presenting his thoughts and views for the last eight years is absolutely unacceptable to me. It’s apparent that he, too, is sick of the Russian World, and this is his lament. However, he expresses it in a form that I cannot accept.
But, he is essentially right. The military-technical side of a special military operation is not my area of expertise, i.e. how it goes, according to what plan. I don’t know any of that, but, be that as it may, the mobilization of the people (in all senses of this word) is inevitable. We underestimate the passion of the Russian man. He’s free only when he acquires a "Solar" origin.
So maybe Putin should appeal to the nation for its support?
In the near future, support for Putin will be absolute as it is. Chubais is gone, which means that the authorities are now together with the people. When the people will free themselves from the hiding place, into which they have been driven, and when the authorities will inevitably turn to the Russian people, then the Russians will demonstrate who they are, and what they can do.
We are peaceful people, but our armored train is on the rail siding.
Yes, the moment Putin says, "Russian, rise up, you are now truly needed," the people will, no doubt, respond.
The special operation shouldn’t be conducted only by the state, it must become truly popular. So far, the Russian people aren’t fully involved in it. Without mobilizing the Russian people, without explaining their historical mission to them, without awakening their deepest beginning, without the words "brothers and sisters," it’s impossible to win.
"Arise, Russian people, awaken, you are summoned to perform great deeds..." All your ancestors, all generations have been striving to reach this moment, this confrontation with our ontological enemy. Truth and God are on our side. We are fighting the absolute Evil embodied in Western civilization, in its liberal-totalitarian hegemony, in Ukrainian Nazism. We were created for this mission. This is what is needed now, a call is needed.
In one of your previous interviews, you talked about the imminence of some kind of catastrophe that could destroy the majority of humanity. As we can see, what was previously unthinkable, is already being openly discussed, like the possibility of using nuclear arms. It’s reminiscent of that Chekhov’s gun on the wall that should go off. Aren't you afraid?
We are always balancing on a thread. Every weapon is designed to be fired.
Is it not made for the balance of power? It’s like, “I don't shoot, you don't shoot, nobody shoots.”
You are correct. It was explained to us that nuclear arms are designed to keep other weapons from firing. It is a method of deterrence and has not been used in conventional wars, medium-intensity wars. However, nuclear arms under certain circumstances, provided we are talking about a clash of civilizations, can also turn into offensive weapons.
Naturally, Russia will never be the first to do so, because our nuclear arms bring peace, and their nuclear arms are coupled with aggression. But I am not claiming that a nuclear catastrophe is inevitable.
I would very much like to avoid it.
I don't believe that you and I can influence the decision right now, as to whether or not the destruction of mankind will begin.
"Point of no return" has it already been passed or not yet?
I believe that NATO's entry into the war on the side of Ukraine would be such a point.
And then that's it?
It seems to me that the people who represent Washington are balancing manic rage with some rationality. When rage predominates, they are the ones calling for the destruction of Russia with nuclear arms.
As I recall it, they call for it on [Russian state] TV, too. I heard it myself during [Vladimir] Solovyov’s program.
I believe that there are different messages that the government strives to convey to other countries through TV. But I’m deeply convinced that the decision to destroy humanity can only be made by the US.
I think I understand the logic of the "Solar" ruler, he very much didn’t want what happened, he is concerned about people and maintaining the peace. But I remember his words that if Russia having sustained a nuclear strike was put before the choice of whether or not to respond to it, he would not allow the world to exist without Russia.
In other words, "We all go to heaven, and let the rest of them die," to quote the "Solar" ruler. You are a religious philosopher, a mystic. Doesn't it seem to you that the struggle between the Good, which is represented by us, and the absolute Evil, which, in your opinion, is manifested by the West, can end with only one thing: the end of the world? As John's Revelation suggests, Pestilence (coronavirus) will be followed by the War, after which Famine and Death will arrive. Are the Horsemen of the Apocalypse coming?
We have all forgotten that Christianity is an end of times religion. Christ will come in the Last Days, and it is impossible for a Christian, waiting for the Second Coming, to believe otherwise. It’s abnormal to believe in progress, in technical development, in the endless evolution of species. Either you are a Christian, or you belong to the modern material world.
For the Christian, the Apocalypse is something that is always nearby. A return to Russian identity means a return to the deep and only possible type of Christianity, which includes the Book of Revelation, as the last book of the New Testament. Obviously, we cannot turn a blind eye to the events described there. Sooner or later they will come true literally.
Will it happen now?
I made no such claim. But it would be very right, very responsible, very Russian-like, to assess the events unfolding today in the apocalyptic dimension, and to do everything possible to ensure that the inevitable consequences won’t come. And if it’s impossible to dodge what is destined to happen, it’s important to be on the right side during the End of the World, i.e. on our side.
"We're at the top of the list in terms of importance."
The Church, too, is going through a hard time right now. After all, not everyone understood and accepted Patriarch Kirill's sermon on March 9, which proclaimed that the state has the right to coerce other states by force, to do as the former sees fit, provided it feels threatened by them. Then he uttered another phrase that sparked concern among theologians, that "forgiveness without justice is surrender and weakness." "The moral and ethical basis of Christianity lies in forgiveness, isn't it?
In this new apocalyptic cycle, all the proportions have been changed, what might have been considered "the rule" in peacetime, has now been discarded as superfluous. But there is no "Christianity in general.” Catholics themselves consider the Orthodox Church "heretical," and we respond in kind. So, they can't point out anything to us.
For us, Christianity is the Russian Orthodox Church, and no one else. We are conducting an eschatological military operation, a special operation held at the vertical plane between Light and Darkness at the background of an end-time situation.
We are the Party of Light, I take it?
And the West is the party of Darkness judging by all indications and symbols.
Where do you see yourself now? In the new Russian World?
I guess, in a sense, I am also a symbol and a mythological figure, like Chubais, only with an "anti-" prefix. If Ukraine is “anti-Russia,” then I am “anti-Chubais.”
I can fulfill any role, from a private, who provides rounds of ammunition, reservist mobilized for the special operations, to any position where the state and the authorities call me. [I’m ready to serve at] any position necessary for our victory.
One last question. Putin practically speaks in quotes from your writings, this was especially the case before the start of the special operation. In your opinion, does he read you papers?
I believe both he and I are reading the same writings, written in golden letters on the skies of Russian history.
Disregarding a metaphysical plane, are you communicating on an ordinary earthly level?
That's a question I never answer.
[1] Mk.ru, March 30, 2022.
