In a wide-ranging TV interview, former U.N. secretary-general Boutros Boutros-Ghali justified the ban on the Muslim Brotherhood party, pointing to its record of assassinating Egyptian heads of states and saying that permitting its activity was "a mistake or a sign of weakness." With regard to the situation in Syria, Boutros-Ghali said that the U.S. has "no problem with the instability continuing in Syria, with neither side prevailing." Reminiscing about his term as U.N. secretary-general, the nonagenarian statesman said: "I should have accommodated the American demands," pointing to this as the reason underlying the U.S. decision to veto his second term in office. With regard to American-Iranian relations, Boutros-Ghali reiterated the guiding principle that governed his statesmanship: "I believe in negotiations, and I reject the use of force."
To view excerpts from the interview, which aired on October 28, 2013 on the Egyptian Al-Hayat TV, click here. Following is a translation of these excerpts:
The U.S. Wants To Preserve Instability And Civil War In Syria
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "The situation in Syria has deteriorated into an all-out civil war." Interviewer: "Is this the result of..."
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "Look, I have often visited Central and Latin America. The U.S. has a vested interest in war and instability continuing there. Wars raged in Nicaragua, Honduras, and El Salvador for 20-30 years. It was convenient for them. They have no problem with the instability continuing in Syria, with neither side prevailing."
Interviewer: "They want to preserve the current situation."
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "That way, the instability and the civil war will continue."
Interviewer: "But they cannot control the ramifications of that war. Doesn't that worry them?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "No, they can control the ramifications."
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America Enjoys Openness, We Egyptians Suffer From Ideological Closed-Mindedness
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "I still claim that the U.S. will continue to dominate international relations for the next 20-30 years, at least, because it enjoys openness unparalleled in any other country. Any foreigner who has been in the U.S. two or three years can become a minister. They don't have the complexes from which we suffer. We took down the statue of Soliman Pasha, and we call him Soliman Pasha the French. The man converted to Islam, commanded the Egyptian army, and won victories for Egypt, yet we still call him 'the French.' On the contrary, I am proud to be able to say that he was Egyptian.
"Take Nubar Pasha 'the Armenian' – he was an Egyptian. We will still suffer from ideological closed-mindedness. We cannot upon up. America has the ability to open up, and that is to its benefit. In addition, it has made tremendous progress. Every first-rate foreign expert goes to the U.S. All the well-known French cardiologists are in the U.S. Let me tell you, America's openness and innovativeness... All the new inventions are American."
Interviewer: "But the political positions are shifting. Don't you think that affects the U.S.?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "They will have an effect in 20 or 30 years. Chinese is not an international language. English is. This 'weapon' is in the hands of the Americans, not the Chinese. The ability to invent new things exists in the U.S. China cannot take an Englishmen and appoint him head of state. America does that. It is no big deal for them."
Interviewer: "You think that gives them the power..."
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "Of course. We had this kind of openness in the days of Muhammad Ali."
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"I Was Wrong" To Defy The U.S.
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "It is in our interest to maintain good relations with the U.S. I was wrong, and the consequence was that they threw me out of the U.N."
Interviewer: "But you had a principled position..."
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "Yes, but I should have accommodated the American demands. [The U.S. vetoed my second term] due to my positions that dissented from America's."
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Interviewer: "If you could go back in time, would you have changed your positions?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "I can't answer that. It's a hypothetical. Perhaps because of my age, I am less zealous and less tenacious. It's possible."
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The Muslim Brotherhood's Political Party Should Be Banned
Interviewer: "Were you relieved when the Muslim Brotherhood were removed from power?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "Of course. We were about to enter a dark period, which would have lasted 20 or 30 years."
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Interviewer: "Do you think that it is the end of the road for the Muslim Brotherhood, or might they return to power?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "I cannot answer that. I don't know. What I know is that they have been defeated, and that this political party should have been banned. Let's not forget that they killed [Prime Minister] Ahmad Maher, [Prime Minister] Nukrashi, and [Judge] Ahmad Khazendar. They assassinated heads of states, including Sadat. How can such a political party be approved? Such parties are banned in Germany, Italy, and France."
Interviewer: "So the same rules should apply here?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "In my opinion, yes."
Interviewer: "Do you think that the current discussions regarding the Egyptian constitution will incorporate these rules?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "I don't need a constitution. What I need is a strong political will. The Muslim Brotherhood was banned in the days of Ahmad Maher and Nukrashi. Their activity was prohibited. Why did we permit it now? That was a mistake or a sign of weakness."
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"The Notion Of 'State' Has Lost Much Of Its Significance"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "Due to globalization, states intervene in the affairs of other states. The notion of the 'state' has lost much of its significance. Of course, it is difficult to tell 50 percent of the world's countries, which fought to become independent and to rid themselves of traditional colonialism, that the word 'state' has come to an end. There is a new phenomenon, in which the main problems of any country can no longer be dealt with by that state. They must be dealt with on the international level."
Interviewer: "And we must accept this and go along with it..."
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "Of course. But people fought for 20 years for their independence, and along you come and tell them that independence is not sufficient to resolve national problems, and that they must turn to international or regional organizations..."
Interviewer: "So there is no such thing as local problems anymore?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "There are no national problems. The state will continue to play a role, but alongside international organizations. When they say that they want to reform the U.N. – to add a new seat, African representation, Egyptian representation... All this is insignificant. What is important is that the non-state actors will be represented."
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On The American Position Vis-à-Vis Syria And Iran: "I Reject The Use Of Force"
Interviewer: "Could there be a change in American-Iranian relations?"
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "I believe in negotiations, and I reject the use of force. One can achieve one's goal through negotiations.
"Of course, negotiations could take two or three years, whereas the use of force is swift. But it is in my interest to avoid the use of force – in the case of Iran and in the case of Syria too."
Interviewer: "They were on the verge of using force, and then backed down."
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "The same is true with regard to Syria."
Interviewer: "So you believe that the use of force will not achieve results."
Boutros Boutros-Ghali: "It might achieve results, but it will do far greater damage. I believe in negotiations, and I have achieved successes in negotiations. I was successful in El Salvador, following a 30-year war, and in Mozambique. I failed in Angola and in Yugoslavia. I was successful in Cambodia. All cases are different. It requires an effort."
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