Noorul Aziz, who was the Taliban's shadow governor of Afghanistan's northern Kunduz province, has joined the peace process launched by High Peace Council (HPC), which has been tasked by Afghan President Hamid Karzai to engage in peace negotiations with the Taliban and other militant organizations in the country.
Soon after Noorul Aziz and his group of 50 fighters surrendered before government officials in Kandahar in April 2011, a spokesman of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (the Taliban's shadow government) issued a statement disowning any links with him. The spokesman, Qari Yousuf Ahmadi, said: "Aziz must be a government employee or an imposter who poses as a Taliban shadow governor to get money… our designated governor for Kunduz is in his area… We believe such dramas are staged by Afghan and foreign intelligence officials to create rifts in Taliban ranks."[1]
Recently, in an interview with the Pashtu-language Afghan television channel TOLO News, Noorul Aziz revealed details about how the Taliban insurgency re-emerged after the Taliban regime was removed by the U.S. in 2001 and how Pakistan, Iran, and Arab countries continue to support the Taliban movement. He also noted that Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, has no authority to hold peace talks, as claimed in the international media. Instead, the real authority to permit Mullah Omar to hold peace negotiations rests mainly with the Pakistani military's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), and to some extent with the Iranians. He also revealed that in 2010, Iran provided the Taliban with 500 motorcycles to carry out jihad against U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan.
Following are excerpts from the interview:[2]
"All This Money [for the Taliban] Comes from Abroad, And They Want the Destruction of Afghanistan…; We are Fighting Jihad for Others' Interest"
Q: "The Taliban government was toppled 10 years ago. The Taliban were dismantled, but later the war started again. What were the reasons you started fighting again?"
Noorul Aziz: "The reason unfortunately is because of the people in the government. When our 'Emirate' collapsed, there was a government and rule of law, and the law was that of the Holy Koran. We were very happy, and I started my work in teaching, as a mullah [cleric]. My Taliban friends went back to normal life. But after five or six months, all the drug addicts, wicked, and corrupt [people] came to the government. They started bothering us; prisons were filled with Taliban. My own house was looted thrice, and my friends' homes were plundered. Even now those drug addicts are district governors there. I can show them to the government. They have usurped our lands and goods. They are using our farmlands and gardens. I informed the government."
Q: "These people who bothered you, are there some other elements behind them other than the government?"
Noorul Aziz: "There are other elements too, but I will reveal that later. I have promised the intelligence [National Directorate of Security – Afghanistan's intelligence agency]. Those elements are in the government, and have support of the state. The central government has less control in rural areas. Even now my 80 jerib [120 hectares of] land is being used by that man. In such a situation, should I take up arms, or will the government give it to me?"
Q: "The guns, bullets, and all these weapons used by the Taliban - where do they come from?"
Noorul Aziz: "As far as I believe, Osama [bin Laden] the mujahid provided us, or the Arab countries and some other foreigners. Now I have realized that all this money comes from abroad, and they want the destruction of Afghanistan – not rebuilding and peace in this country. This is in others' interest. We are fighting jihad for others' interest. Fortunately I heard the announcement from President [Hamid Karzai about reconciliation and reintegration of militants] and I was very happy that now I can reach out to the government."
"Last Year Some Punjabis [Taliban Militants from Pakistan's Punjab Province] had Come…; They Said They were Our Brothers, and There was No Border in Islam…"
Interviewer: "As you said, support comes from somewhere else. Do the Taliban ask themselves questions regarding the money coming from abroad...? Those who give you money and assistance to fight foreigners in Afghanistan, why don't they announce jihad in their own countries, as there are foreign bases [there] too? Do the Taliban ask themselves such questions, or only people like you, who are aware…?"
Noorul Aziz: "Last year some Punjabis [Urdu-speaking Taliban militants from Pakistan] had come to me, when I was [the Taliban's shadow] District Governor in Kunduz. I told those brothers to leave. We are destroyed here. We fight, and the name goes to you. We are enough here; you are allowed to leave. When I came back in the evening, they were still in the area. I put them on a tractor and sent them to another district.
"But some people accused me: why did I do that? They said they were our brothers, and there was no border in Islam. I said I am in my sense, if the war on the other side of border [in Pakistan] is wrong, why should it be right here [in Afghanistan]. The bombardment of Afghanistan was launched from Pakistan [by the U.S. after 9/11]. We should first start jihad on Pakistan. Jihad is the same, and obligatory on all Muslims."
Q: "The current war going on at this side of the border [in Afghanistan] or the other side of the border [in Pakistan] - will this resolve the problems?"
Noorul Aziz: "This is a policy of Pakistan. They are playing with everyone, and some know this. There are different people in Pakistan. They have different faces like Jamiat Ulema Islam [JUI of Maulana Fazlur Rehman] and others. When the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan, they sent JUI leaders and made us do many things, like [Afghan President] Dr. Najibullah's [hanging by the Taliban]. This was the work of Pakistanis."
Q: "Is Pakistan playing this clever, how the Taliban get used?
Noorul Aziz: "They bring different people to us, as their products. They do it, and bad name comes to us. Who martyred Dr. Najib? This was Pakistan's deed, not the Taliban's. The Taliban didn't [want to] do such things…"
"The Mujahideen Who are Martyred, Injured, And Imprisoned Have a Clear Purpose, and It's for Allah"
Q: "Now those who are leading to resolve the conflict in Afghanistan, where should they focus, in which part of Pakistan, since we know the problem is there?"
Noorul Aziz: "The bombardment going on [in Afghanistan] is cruelty. It should not be here. They [victims] are all Pashtuns, Muslims. It should be in Islamabad… Karachi, everyone is there."
Q: "You talked of Pashtuns. The Taliban movement operating in Afghanistan is all Pashtuns; or are other people also included among the Afghan Taliban?
Noorul Aziz: "The Taliban are not from one group or nation. Among these Taliban, there are Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras, Pashtuns, Baluchis, and from many ethnic groups; some less, others more.
Q: "Is there ideological understanding and unity among those who are in the Taliban leadership, like Mullah Omar and people close to him in the Quetta Shura, and the Taliban militias who are fighting on the ground? Or are these Lashkars [militias] fighting for other reasons, like money and due to anger [against the government]? What do you think?"
Noorul Aziz: "The Mujahideen who are martyred, injured, and imprisoned have a clear purpose, and it's for Allah."
Q: "All of them?"
Noorul Aziz: "See, there are three types of the Taliban. One are the mujahideen fighting in the path of Allah. I am from those people who are fighting and are martyred for this soil. The other type is those fighting for Al-Qaeda; and the rest for ISI [Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence]. You asked about the mujahideen; their cause is very clear; the leaders however they be, it will be up to them on the Judgment Day, if they are supported by the ISI or abroad."
"[The Taliban Receive Aid], Especially from America; I am 100% Sure About This; It Also Comes from Arab Countries, But Through ISI"
Q: "Other than the ISI, where do they get support from others abroad?"
Noorul Aziz: "Especially from America. I am 100% sure about this. It also comes from Arab countries, but through ISI."
Q: "You said that the Taliban are fighting for an honest cause. When they were in power at the time of the Taliban Emirate, certain conditions were imposed for education, women… do you think that the Taliban want the same thing again, that the government should be like that of the Taliban Emirate, or that there is a change in the thinking of the Taliban [in favor of slightly liberal laws on education and women]?"
Noorul Aziz: "No, it's not like that. Those are not those times and those people. I don't like those conditions on women. If I tell the truth, what the people of Afghanistan need, what the government of Afghanistan needs - that's peace and security. They all, the people of Afghanistan, the government of Afghanistan, and the Taliban of Afghanistan, need peace! We should take steps for peace."
Q: "What should the government of Afghanistan do for peace which they have not done so far?"
Noorul Aziz: "I have the message for Mr. President that he should cut the foreign hands. To the parliament I want to say, they are representatives of your people and should serve them. I expect the government and elders to say to a Talib [militant] that 'you are my brother, come and sit here.' I will be thankful to them."
"Many Taliban Say They are Grateful That the Americans are There, Whom They are Fighting; Otherwise, if They Leave We will Fight Against Our Brothers"
Q: "As foreigners have a role, Pakistan and Iran are said to be supporting the Taliban. Don't you think that they [Pakistan and Iran] will impose their conditions on us once foreigners leave [Afghanistan]? If the Americans and NATO leave, what will happen?"
Noorul Aziz: "It is not in the interest of Afghanistan. It will be in the interest of Pakistan. They [Pakistan] will again do the same things, destroy the Buddhas… to harm India. I remember India had asked not to destroy the Bamiyan Buddhas and [promised that] they will build the Babri Mosque [attacked by Hindus in India], but Mullah [Omar] didn't accept."
Q: "The departure of foreigners [from Afghanistan] is sure. They cannot stay in a country forever, but have the Taliban realized that if foreigners leave now, what will happen to Afghanistan? We hear that Taliban leaders are directly talking to foreigners. What is the reality - they don't want foreigners to stay, or don't want to talk to them?"
Noorul Aziz: "There can be two situations; we are also distrustful of our leaders. They tell me to fight, but they themselves sit to talk. This is true! Many Taliban say they are grateful that the Americans are there whom they are fighting; otherwise if they leave we will fight against our brothers. We need peace. There are still people fighting for dollars and for foreign interests.
"There are some who say that the Taliban will not come for peace. To them I want to say, for God's sake, stop foreign slavery and service for the dollar, and come to bring peace to this country, and ask others to join. The South and the North [Pashtuns and non-Pashtuns, respectively, of Afghanistan] are brothers.
"And there are those people who are fighting for Pakistan, saying it is impossible to talk to the enemies of Afghanistan. No, they are their own enemy. Peace must prevail in this country."
"The U.S. is Responsible [for Civilian Casualties]…; Those Taliban are Responsible [for Civilian Casualties] Who Call Themselves Fidayeen [Suicide Bombers] and for One Foreigner, Kill Hundreds of Locals"
Q: "You talked of peace and urged the Taliban to go for it. There is the political opposition, other than the Taliban, who are, as they said some days ago, against such a peace [process of reconciliation], that there must be conditions. What do you say to them?"
Noorul Aziz: "When there are conditions among two brothers, it won't make good. Who asked for conditions? No one; I came myself and joined the peace process. I want peace for this country and my brothers, not for money or conditions."
Q: "There are too many civilian casualties in this war. On one hand, it is caused by bombardment [international troops], and on the other hand by the Taliban. Do you think there can be conditions to stop civilian casualties?"
Noorul Aziz: "First, the U.S. is responsible [for civilian casualties]. They conduct night raids, search our homes and women. It's against Afghan culture. In Afghanistan, if you kill one, ten will be there for revenge. That's why the war in Afghanistan is not ending. The first mistake is made by the Americans who bombarded homes of people.
"Second, those Taliban are responsible [for civilian casualties] who call themselves Fidayeen [suicide bombers] and for one foreigner, kill hundreds of locals [in their suicide attacks]. Allah says [reciting verse from the Koran], 'if you kill one Muslim, you will go to hell forever.' They [suicide bombers] kill 200 in one attack, how will they go to paradise? They will go to the worst place in hell. Some people use it. It was in America or somewhere, someone had burnt a Koran [referring to Terry Jones], may God punish him; but to those who in reaction killed people and burned copies of Koran in Kandahar [during the protests there], is this our tradition, is this a response?"
"The Taliban are Not Tired of Fighting; I Don't Say They Can Be Defeated Militarily…; Last Year They [the Iranians] Gave Us 500 Motorcycles"
Q: "There is a peace process, and a High Peace Council; talks are going on. But who can bring real peace? The Taliban ruled once on this country, and you said they don't want the same situation again, is there a change in the Taliban's thinking?"
Noorul Aziz: "The Taliban are not tired of fighting. I don't say they can be defeated militarily."
Interviewer: "You joined the peace process along with many of your friends; you have seen there are schools for women, freedom, and media. What do think the Taliban want from this government, the constitution and system? Was there such a discussion among the Taliban?"
Noorul Aziz: "We had no consensus on this. I was also very much against this government before, but now we can make our brothers [the Taliban] understand. I was using all those words, dollar, foreign slavery… I have realized now."
Q: "Now that talks are underway, do you think the Quetta Shura, Mullah Omar and his friends, have the authority to make decisions, or will they look to Pakistan for permission to answer the process of talks? Do you think they have such freedom?"
Noorul Aziz: "First, God willing if he [Mullah Omar] is alive. I don't believe [that he is alive]. Second, if he is alive, he has no authority for talks or peace, the authority is with others. It's with Pakistan, and a little with Iran."
Q: "Iran also?"
Noorul Aziz: "Yes, last year they gave us 500 motorcycles."
"The Taliban Make Their Decisions, Hold Their Shura [Council Meetings], But the Real Center is ISI"
Interviewer: Pakistan has so much control on the Taliban's Quetta Shura, do they order directly, or through Pakistani Taliban, or how?
Noorul Aziz: "It's very secret and behind the curtains. The Taliban make their decisions, hold their Shura [council meetings], but the real center is ISI."
Q: "So the Quetta Shura has no power to make a decision, to say yes or no to the peace efforts. They must ask permission from Pakistan?"
Noorul Aziz: "It's in others' hand. They [Taliban] cannot say yes or no. I asked the government for setting up two madrassas, because our people go to Pakistan for [education in]
madrassa and [instead] learn planting bombs and suicide attacks.
"I don't want the Peshawar clerics, or the Deobandi Ulema [pro-Taliban Pakistani clerics], I want Egyptian clerics. I don't want these clerics who make my children learn bomb blasts. These Tablighis [preachers of revivalist group Tablighi Jamaat] and Wahhabis are not to help us. The government can do this and build good madrassas."
Q: "What do you say to Pakistan and Iran?
Noorul Aziz: "… Iran has its hands in our blood and has killed many Afghans, but they are not the real thief for our country, as is Pakistan. I request Pakistan, for God's sake, don't send our children to explode among us."
Endnotes:
